#83 S4 EP 3: Redefining the Church with Dub Karriker: Embracing Faith Beyond the Physical Walls and Cultivating Unity in Diversity

Hello, hello and welcome back. Gauge Diamonds in the Ruff. We are here and ready to do it again. If you don't know who I am, I am Catherine.

And I am Michael.

Michael, you had a slow moment just now. You forgot.

Yeah, I almost forgot who I was.

Oh, you gotta love it. Y'all gotta love us. Amen, because we are just authentic. Yeah, it is what it is, hallelujah. So today we're going to be talking about the church. Amen. We are talking about the church, and we have a special guest. Amen, and we're going to introduce him in a minute. Y'all know we got to do first, though. Okay, all right.

You got to go to the Lord and prayer. Let us pray, dear heavenly Father, our Lord and our Savior, jesus Christ, we come to you once again to say thank you. We thank you for your grace, your mercy and your loving kind of attendant mercy. We pray in the name of Jesus, begging your forgiveness for anything that everybody said, done or thought that's not pleasing your sight. That your grace should forgive and cast it back into the picture of where it came from. We pray in the name of Jesus counseling any assignment of the enemy that will be sent back into the picture of where it came from, for, as I always say, it has no power, no dominion and no authority. But your word said that we do. So. We pray in the name of Jesus. We will continue to walk in that authority, that dominion and that you have given us freely. We pray in the name of Jesus for the ones that have no desire to know who you are. We pray in the name of Jesus in a scene for the ones who want to know who you are but don't know how. We also pray in the name of Jesus in a scene for the ones that wants to know who you are but don't know how we also pray for the ones that says pray for me. We pray in the name of Jesus, asking you just to have your way in us and through us, by your grace and your mercy. We ask these things and all things, all in Jesus mighty and Max's name. We say thank you and we say amen, amen, amen and amen.

Amen, all right, all right. So we are again. We are talking about the church and really trying to identify who we are as the church. A man and, as I said, we have a guest and his name is Dub Carriker, and he is a former pastor, but still a pastor of pastors, and he is just simply a man of God after the heart of God, hallelujah. So, mr Dub, we want to ask you to say hello to everyone.

Hi everybody. It's great to be on the diamonds and the rough podcast and I'm looking forward to this conversation.

As we are as we are, and so I think it's interesting how because, with the way that we connect with each other on, if you all didn't know it, pod match, it usually gives us like Arthur and entrepreneur or whatever have you, he doesn't have anything. Amen. Did you think about putting anything up there? Or you just wanted to just be described as a man of God?

Well, a man of God kind of covers the whole thing I am. I have been a pastor. I still, as you said, I still pastor other pastors. I've traveled a lot doing missionary work overseas, and I am an author. I've written a new book called what is Church, so that's appropriate to our conversation here. But I think one of the things that I learned years ago was to stop defining myself outside of Jesus. You know, when people ask me who I am or what I do, I try to just tell them I'm a child of God, because I think when we start finding our identity anywhere else than that, it's not that we don't have jobs or job titles or those kind of things and there's nothing wrong with that. But when we, when we start finding our identity outside of Christ, I think we can. You know we can start to get ourselves in trouble and you know you can start finding your worth in what you do rather than who you are, and we're saved by the grace of God. And so, yeah, I'm just one of God's man.

All right, I love it. So how would what's from your perspective? And we always try to try to do our interviews and our podcast in general something similar to a round table and we just give one another's perspectives. Even though we're asking you questions, we just kind of give each other's perspectives on different things. And so my first question to you is how would you describe the church? What is church?

That's a big question. I wrote the book because I think a lot of people are confused. I think the church is simply the love of God that is found in the unique community of Jesus. When we talk about the church, we're not talking about just a social organization. We're not talking about a business. We're not talking about an institution or a nonprofit or something like that. We're talking about the family of God and the way that that is displayed on the earth. So I think a simple understanding of the church is it is the love of God found in the unique community of Jesus.

Hallelujah, love it. Michael, what's your thought, what's your perspective of what is church?

I mean, you can actually classify it in two ways, one being the physical church, it's more of a meeting place. But then, when you really define church, we are the church. And that's why I think that people get it kind of twisted is that we look at it as like we can only have church only on certain days. But in reality God tells us in His Word and I think it's in John that we are the light of the world, and that's letting us know that we don't really have to be in a church setting to share the Word of God and we can be sitting in our home, on social media or phone conversation or anything to spread the Word of God. We don't necessarily have to be in a church building. But I think that's where people get it confused about. Oh, church is because it's a place where you go Right.

I like both of y'all's thoughts and comments to that question, because I just believe that it's not a place that you gather. I believe that both answers are. They speak to the heart of really what it's all about. It's about Jesus, it's about us serving Him, it's about us really being the hands and feet of Jesus as the church, and it's so sad that those of us who are in leadership are not teaching that Amen. People like us, like pastors and people that have a spiritual authority, are using people as bargaining chips, and it's not right and Jesus is not happy with that.

I would totally agree with that. In my book I delineate church in two different ways One with a small sea and one with a large sea. The church is actually the large sea. It's what Jesus created when he was here on earth. He brought the kingdom of God from heaven to earth and he displayed God's nature and His character. And then he saved us and then he made us part of the family of God, which is the church at large, the church universal, that's anybody that is saved through Jesus Christ. But then as human beings, when we talk about church, we say what church do you go to? We're talking about sometimes, what building do you go to, or what's your church named, what's it called? And those are expressions of the church and those are perfectly valid. But the church is more than that. It is. It really is people, it really is the family of God. And I think a lot of times you talk about leaders. I think a lot of times leaders have a certain idea or a certain vision about this is who we are, this is what we should be doing, and sometimes that matches up with the word of God and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just furthering a person's kingdom rather than the kingdom of God here on earth. So, yeah, I think I mean I agree with both of you it's a lot. The idea of church is a lot larger than what we typically consider, and when I say we, I'm talking about human beings. What we typically consider church, it's not the building, it's not even just a small group of people, be they, you know, getting together in somebody's home or being Christians at their workplace or whatever, but it's all of us together, working in God's field to bring the gospel, the good news of Jesus, to people, to help them to find salvation and come into the kingdom of God. And then us working together to demonstrate God's nature and his character and follow his commands while we're here on earth so that his will is accomplished.

I just thought, as I was listening to you talk, I thought are you saying that leaders, sometimes leaders have their own agenda and has really has nothing to do with Jesus? You know what I mean? Chasing out the numbers, chasing out the money, and I believe that that's why the church is lost, because, you know, because this has happened, the people who need Jesus and need discipleship, they look at the character of these leaders that are doing that and it's just, it's a level of distrust and so, like you said, wounds happen, you know, they get wounded, and then they not just reject the church they were in or reject the leadership that that was leading them, but they just reject all of it, all of it. And then it becomes a question of were you really trusting in Jesus or were you trusting in man? What's your thoughts?

You know, I always say definitely to what's already been said and to the damages to just. You know, just, maybe it's your first time, you know we like to, you know, get into the fundamentals of the scriptures in it and one particular scripture that I think hits home for me, you know, when it comes from that, because I've me myself, I've been wounded by a church and for a long time I sort of steered away from church. Yeah, I believe in Jesus, you know, I read his word, but for me to go into another church building, you know, I kind of strayed away from him. But then I read a scripture and it's in 1 Corinthians, 12, 12 to 27,. I'm just going to read one of them. It says for, as the body is one or have many members, and all the members of that one body being many, are one body, so also in Christ, for by one spirit, we are all baptizing to the one body, whether it be Jews or Gentiles, whether it be bond or free, we have all been made to drink in one spirit. And you look at that, if we can all get on one accord with understanding that, look, we all make mistakes in life, but we got come to the realization that Jesus did all these things for us so that we can be on One accord. And it says and it says, whether we it be Jews or Gentiles, believers or nonbelievers, that we can all Come to understand that Jesus took all these things in life but so we can be free, whether we be free or in bondage, that we all come to the realization that His desire is for all of us to be free.

Can you speak to that dub about that freedom and the?

absolute be, absolutely yeah, that's. That's exactly what Jesus came to set us to set us free. It's exactly what he came to do, because the Bible tells us that we're all bound up in sin, we've all done sinful things and we need to be set free from those. We also need to be set free from the limitations that either we've put on ourselves or that other people have sometimes put on us, and that's why the church is so important. In Ephesians 1, 22 and 23 it says he put all things under his feet, speaking of Jesus, and, and gave Jesus as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him, who fills all in all. And he didn't come to just save us as individuals. He came to save his people as a whole, so that we would Be together as one, living free from the law of sin and death, living free from the, the rules of the, the law because Jesus fulfilled all those for us and being free in the, in the Holy Spirit, so that we are listening to God and we're walking according to his commands. He's the head of the church and we all are parts of the body and we all have our place and and our calling, and Sometimes we we get a wrong idea of what that should be and and I think we have to be able to walk in that freedom, and that's hard for a lot of people to walk. In the freedom of the Spirit, it's easier to walk by law, you know, let me, let me have my rules and regulations and my dues and my doubts, and you know, that way I'll know that whether I'm doing good or whether I'm doing bad, but I'll do, I'll do that on my own terms and that's not what all what Jesus intended. He intends for us to be free so that we can follow the Holy Spirit and the gifts and the callings that he gives to each one of us Individually, and so that we can be free to really love God and we can be free to really love one another.

And so you know, with all of that being said in your book, do you have any answer to the one who's been wounded about the church and Trying to figure out do I stay or do I go?

Yeah, I actually do. I wrote this church, I wrote this book. What is church? Like I said, for several reasons. I wrote it for People who are believers in Jesus, people that have been hurt, people that are, you know, trying to figure out Is this whole church thing for me, should I even be following God? For those who are skeptics, even for those who are opponents? And I just go through the scriptures. What I'm trying to do in the book is to show from the scriptures what Jesus and his apostles intended for the church, who the church really is, because it's it's. Unfortunately, the church has Done a lot of damage to itself. I mean, we, you know all the stories you know about the, the misdeeds of the church and the way people have been pressed down and Treated badly, and so what I'm trying to do with this book is to go back and Say, okay, rather than revisiting all the ills of the church, let's look at what it is from scripture, and then we can know what the genuine article is. And when you know what the genuine church is, then you can evaluate am I in the right place, you know? Am I with the right group of people, or do I need to be somewhere else, with people who are Really genuinely following the Lord, really genuinely loving God and really genuinely loving other people.

Man amen, so I would. I'm. So how, how I'm thinking about where scale. I'm sorry, how do people get your book?

Oh, well, right now you it's. It comes out in bookstores and All the booksellers online and everything, amazon and All of those. It comes out in January 16th. Right now, people could go to my website and you can get it through the website and you can get an autographed copy and my website is dub caracorcom, which you know. You have to know how to spell all that. It's dub k a r I k? E r calm. Or you can just pre-order it, like if you want to get it from Barnes and Noble or Target or Amazon or something like that, you can just go up and go in there and look up what is church with a question mark after it and you can pre-order the book now.

Okay, well, by the time, our diamonds here, this episode, the book, will be out by then that's true. Yeah, so you want to definitely go after that book? Um, because I myself I think that we need that amen and we absolutely need to support the body. And so, answering the question of, and the topic, really the topic, and we kind of just jumped all around it but how do we know what church is best for us? How do you know which one have? You have a science behind this question.

I don't know if I have a science. I mean, the first thing you have to do is you have to pray and you have to ask God to lead and guide you to the right place and to the right group of people. Then I would say, always look for a leader, whoever's leading the church, or the leaders if there's more than one. Always look for people that are humble and that are willing to follow God. People that are humble, that are loving, that are caring, that are generous, but people that will speak the truth in love. That's what Ephesians 4 says that we're supposed to do speaking the truth in love to one another. We're to grow up. You can err on the side of love, and if you know what the Bible means by love, then that's a great thing. But if you don't have truth to go with that, then it's easy to get off base. Everybody can give you a different definition of what love is, and we probably all know people who are in abusive relationships, that think that they're in love when that's not really love. So we have to have the truth of the word of God as well as the love, but find leaders who are humble, who are teachable, who are not saying well, I've got all truth and I've got all answers and you just need to do what I tell you to do. Kind of thing. Each individual Christian. Your podcast is called God's Diamonds in the Rough. We're each diamonds right as God's people, and Jesus is our head. The scripture is our guide. It's the word of God and we can all hear from the Lord and we can all know what his will and what his plans are. And I think for a lot of Christians that's the hardest thing. Is God, what is your will? And the first place to start is by praying and then reading his word and getting to know him, and then also just listening as we pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us. It may be some impression that God gives you, it may be an idea or a thought that you have, not that all of our thoughts are from God, but some are. You know, and when we listen to the Holy Spirit, I think you'll guide us into all truth. That's what the scripture says, and then we'll know where it is that we're supposed to be and we'll also know where we're not supposed to be Not perfectly capable of making that clear to us, and then we just have to have the courage to, in the faith, to trust God and to follow him.

So, gentlemen, what is y'all's final? We're coming down to the last few minutes of the show, and what is your final thoughts? So a final word to our listeners. With everything that has been said and everything that's been spoken, what's your final word? I don't know who wants to go first.

Michael, why don't you get it first?

All right, I guess my final word. It comes with a scripture that has a lot of questions and it comes from, and it's relating back to, the one body, one baptism. And this scripture comes from 1 Corinthians 12, verse 17 to 26, which says if the whole body were an eye, where was the hearing? If a whole were hearing, where was the smelling? But now have God set the members, every one of them, in the body, as if has pleased him. And if they were all one member, where was the body? But now there are many members yet, but one body and the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no knee of thee, nor again the head to the feet, I have no knee of you, nay. Much more. Those members of the body would seem to have been more feeble or necessary, and those members of the body which we think less honorably. Unto these we bestow more abundant honor and our uncommonly parts have more abundant comeliness, for we commonly parts, have no need, but God have tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to the part which is lacked. There should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another, and whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it, or if one member is be honored, all members rejoice with it. Verse 27,. Now, ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. We have to realize that, as the scripture tells us in Psalms, chapter 139, verses 13 and 14, for it was you who created my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb. I will praise you because I have been fearfully and wonderfully made. We have to realize, diamonds, that despite our flaws, despite our shortcomings, we have been fearfully and wonderfully made in the sight of God. We need each other. That's why each other's that we're one body, one baptism, that for the Jews and the Gentiles. So we cannot despite and push away someone else's thoughts and beliefs because you think they don't line up with yours. You need each other in your life. That is the purpose of Jesus Christ that we all come together as one. Don't sell yourself short. Don't sell somebody else short because it does not line up with your thoughts. Because he tells his word and I love scriptures. He tells in his word that your thoughts are not my thoughts, my ways are not your ways. Follow Jesus and let him direct your path. Don't try to direct your own path, but when you direct your own path, you might not be going down the right path. That's my final word.

Amen. So the Spirit said have you to pray. So I'm going to go ahead and do mine now.

Okay.

And I just I believe that the way that you answered the question of how do I find what church is best for me, it's beautiful, it's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, because the answer to that question spoke to me as relationship, and nobody's relationship is the same. But you only get out of it what you put into it. When you put your heart in the hands of Jesus, he in return allows you into his heart and if you abiding me, I'll abiding you. The scripture says, and it's just, it's a powerful, powerful word for me personally, because we always expect Jesus to do this, that and the other for us, but what are you doing for him? Amen, and this is why I say you get out of it what you put into it and if you're trusting in Jesus to guide your steps, to show you the way, then in return he's going to give you that. And so the humility and all of that second Chronicles, seven and 14 is just for me is my take home scripture to that relationship and finding what church is best for me and how do I really get to the place where I'm totally trusting in him. That's my go to scripture, right there. You get out of it what you put into it and you must pray, you must seek him, you must turn from your wicked ways, you must turn Amen. Then he said I'll hear from heaven and I will heal your land. He'll, he's, I'll forgive you and healed your land. So, diamonds, is up to you, at the end of the day, it is up to you, dub, amen.

Yeah, I just love the sentiment here and the the truth in love that's being spoken. I wanted to pick up on something that Michael said. You know he was reading that scripture and he said that there should be no schism, no division in the church. The apostle Paul, when he wrote the letter to the church in Corinth and and really it applies to the church today he pled. He was pleading with the church in 1st Corinthians 110 and he said I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord, jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions, no schisms among you, but that you'd be united in the same mind and in the same judgment. And if we look at the church today, we look at the world today, we think how could that possibly happen? But in Ephesians 5, jesus promises us that he's coming back for a church that is without spot or wrinkle, no blemishes or any such thing. You know, how can that happen? Well, okay, we have to cooperate. But Jesus is doing the work. It's his church, we are his people. We just need to cooperate with him in what he's doing. Us being without divisions it doesn't mean that we don't have differences. We do. We have different cultures, we have different styles of worship. We, you know there are a lot of things that may be different. He's made us, each individual, each and each unique. A diamond is not, they're not all the same, but they're all precious and they're all beautiful and they are all extremely valuable in God's sight. And that is where we're coming to and Jesus is doing the work. We just have to cooperate with Him and let Him polish us up. And sometimes yeah, there is some, when you talk about coming for His bride without spot or wrinkle, if you've ever tried to get spots and wrinkles out of clothes, you know it takes a little bit of effort to do that, and sometimes in the church we may rub up against each other, and God is using those things to polish us and to make us not just diamonds in the rough, but actually beautiful, polished, finished diamonds, so that when Jesus returns we are ready to see Him, ready to receive Him, and we do that as one church, not as a divided body. That's right. So that's where we're headed and, if you'd like, I'll be happy to pray in that direction. Yes, sir, okay, father, God, we come to you today and we're just so grateful to be able to have these kind of discussions. Lord, I spend a lot of time working in parts of the world where we can't do things like this in public, where the people can't express their faith in Jesus Christ because they'll go to prison or they'll be tortured or worse. And, lord, I thank you for the favor that we do enjoy and I thank you for the freedom, lord, that you give us in the body of Christ. Lord, that even in those places, they may not live in countries that are free, but, lord, they are free because of you and, lord, we are free because of you. Lord, we thank you for your great grace. We thank you for your great mercy, your love, for the salvation that you've given to us, the forgiveness of our sins, lord and Father, for the grace that you give us and the direction by the Holy Spirit that you give us to live a life that is pleasing to you, lord, and that builds your kingdom here on earth. Father, I want to pray for all the diamonds who are listening today, even those that are not sure that they are diamonds Maybe they're still covered in a little bit of mud and not sure that you know. Am I, do I fit here, lord, I pray that you will move in their hearts right now and convince them that, yes, indeed, they are your diamonds. And, lord, we ask that you help us all as we come together, lord, whether it's in individuals, groups or in churches, lord, or Lord over the air, like this, or on social media or wherever. Wherever your people are found, lord, we pray that you will polish us all up and, lord, help us to fulfill your plans and your purposes for your church in this world. We look forward to your soon return and, lord Jesus, please make us ready and we will all worship you and praise you together and give you thanks and glory. Lord, in everything, you alone are worthy to be praised. We love you and we thank you for this time In Jesus' name, amen, amen.

Amen, amen. Thank you so much, doug, for being here. We certainly appreciate your presence.

Well, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to get to know y'all a little bit and to be able to speak the words of God together and to grow together in the Lord. Thank you for doing this podcast.

Amen, amen To God be the glory. Amen, definitely To God be the glory. So you hang on a second.

Okay, all right. Diamonds, y'all know what time it is. Remember until next time. You are a diamond in the rough.

Amen, blessings and love Until next time.