#71 S3 EP 32: Scripture, Community, and God: A Vibrant Exchange on the True Meaning of Faith with Jonathan Drayton

Speaker 1: 0:24

Hello, hello, hello everybody. Welcome to God's Diamonds in the Rough podcast. Those who don't know, my name is Michael, my wife's name is Catherine, but she is not here today. But you know we have to continue to do what the says the Lord and you know, if you've been tuning in recently, you know we're talking all about revival. And you know, when I, when my wife gave me that, told me that that, uh, I was going to be about myself, I was like hmm. But you know, as I was sitting here and thinking and, and you know, speaking to the Lord, he said, you know he dropped a nugget in my, in my, in my spirit says sometimes we have to move out of our comfortable situation and get into an uncomfortable position. I'm going to say that again, sometimes we had to move out of our comfortable situation and move into our uncomfortable position. You know that's the only way God can work with do us is if we allow him to move in and do us, and I hope you're already because we're. We have a special guest today. His name is Jonathan Drayton. But first, you know, we all we've got to do, we got to pray. So let us pray, dear heavenly Father, our Lord and our Savior, jesus Christ. We come to you right now saying thank you. We're thinking for your grace and your mercy. We think for your love and countest and tender mercy. We pray in the name of Jesus that your Holy Spirit will just have its way, move about us, in us and do us, and let you have control of it. We pray in the name of Jesus for the ones that had no desire to know who you are, that they will simply just learn of you and desire to know who and what you are, our Lord and our Savior. We pray in the name of Jesus for the ones had no, that just has no know how to pray for you. We stand interceding for them on their behalf. We pray in the name of Jesus that you just have your way. In Jesus Christ, holy Name, we also pray and beg your forgiveness for anything we might have said, done or thought that's not pleasing your sight, and that your grace, your forgiveness and cashback and the picture of where it came from. These things and all things we ask all in Jesus, mighty and maximum. His name, jesus Christ, we say thank you and we say amen.

Speaker 2: 2:58

Amen.

Speaker 1: 2:59

Amen and amen. And, like I said, you know our special guest, he is here. Won't you go ahead and introduce yourself?

Speaker 2: 3:09

Hey everyone, my name is Jonathan Drain. I'm a Christian philosopher. I'm thankful and appreciative that I'm being featured here on your podcast. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Speaker 1: 3:21

Amen. So I was looking at your website and something you know really caught my eye about. You know how God had, how you had, hard times applying His word to everyday life.

Speaker 2: 3:41

I think the difficult channels that a lot of people are facing not just myself, but I think others, especially those that are new in their faith is they're trying to figure out how can I take what was written in Scripture and apply to how I live my life? Right, a question or the concern that a lot of people have is that the Scriptures themselves are written and provided in a time that people don't see the benefits or how it can be relatable to right now. And it's interesting how, when you read Scripture, you see how the information in the Scripture even though, be it, the time has changed, the concepts and the wisdom that is attached to the lessons that can be learned from what was written, can still be applied. It can transcend regardless of the time periods, but there needs to be some discernment there, right? There's a passage in Proverbs says what all I get and get understanding. So in order to understand how to apply these things, you have to be able to take the practical aspects of what's being said and see how it is it could be implemented not just for the body of Christ but for you individually. So that was the challenge for me, and everything changed when I actually major in philosophy. Now, philosophy is a level of wisdom. That's the definition of it. But if you go to Proverbs, chapter 9, verse 10, specifically, it says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That word fear there does not mean to be afraid or to be fearful. It really means to have reverence, and reverence is to have respect for someone or something. So when we look at that passage and it says Fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the reverence, the respect for God is the beginning of wisdom. Another translation says that the knowledge of God is the one. That is what you should describe, what you should desire to have right. It's the foundation of who you are and what your hopes and dreams can align, to be aligned with what God is asking for you to do or where he wants to place you. So it was from that point and that standpoint that the term philosophy major in philosophy. The question is how can those be aligned? And I think they're not musically exclusive or diametrically opposed. I think God has His hand in human history, regardless of where you are placed, right, I think God has people everywhere and therefore me saying all these things. I think God is involved with human beings, especially in creativity, having the ability to take their gift, towns and abilities that we know in James comes from above, and then implement them and apply them to help situations. I think when we go to the book of Judges and we hear the communication that God has with Gideon and we know Gideon is complaining about his circumstance God redirects him to see that am I not sending you? Am I not sending you? Means that whatever gift and talents that you have with him, that I've given you right, that I equipped you with you, should be able to utilize them and apply it to the situation that the people need you the most. And we get the same thing in the Gospel of John, chapter 1, verse 5, where he sends John and he's obviously a flawed individual. But God can utilize flawed individuals to address human problems. So I say what I have to say, that my understanding of philosophy, the development stage that I went in and studying philosophy, helped but pressurized me to then look at the Scriptures practically. There's a spiritual aspect to it, but there's also a practical aspect to it and we get that in the concept of the parables. There are parables that are provided surface information and then there are kingdom of God concepts within them. That is what helped me understand the Scriptures a little bit more that Scripture in Matthew 7.7 and the NLT. But the basic concept is actually you have received, see if you can, you will find not gonna door will be open to you. But the NLT says keep on, which means you don't stop because things don't make sense. You don't stop because you don't understand. We know that God is a God of process and through the process, over time, if you're continuing to search God out, he will reveal to you. That's why we also get in Galatians 6.9,. He says don't become weary and doing good for you or reap a harvest if you don't give up. So it's the aspect and a desire to search God in the midst of the issue of the situations or circumstances of things that don't make sense, and then you allow God to then direct you into a place where you do understand and things do make sense to you and therefore we don't keep that information to ourselves. What we shared with other people and that was something that kind of motivated me to do such a thing is that the information that God has bestowed upon me, at least the understanding. You know the way I arrived at the understanding is something that everyone wants to have access to, and everyone should have permission to then see how they can grow a relationship with God, and again, it's a process.

Speaker 1: 9:01

Amen. And you know I like the fact that you use that scripture in the beginning about you know the fear of the Lord, because you know, when we look at that scripture we tend to think, you know, I gotta be afraid of him, in a sense of you know him throwing a lightning bolt at my rear end, but at the end of the day he's not really saying that we should be afraid of him. In that sense, like you said, it should be just a fear of reverting him for who he is. But a lot of times we look at scriptures and we take it out of context and that's why it's not good just to look at that one particular scripture. You have to read before and after that verse.

Speaker 2: 9:51

Yep, I agree. Another passage that I mentioned quite often that does speak about fear In the same concept will be Matthew 10, 28, where it says so that really speaks to the understanding that God is not just in control of death, but also is in control with your soul. Right, and we know that Jesus, because of what he did for us, our souls belong to him, and that's the huge difference between experiencing and having salvation versus those who have not committed themselves. In Romans it says whoever confesses out of his mouth and believes in his heart that Jesus did what he did, then you are saved. So it was through that we have access that the Holy Spirit as a deposit must come, and we get that in 2nd Corinthians, chapter 5, which speaks a little bit more on the seriousness and the understanding that us committing to God, christ. He has become the doorway, and the only one that has that access to the doorway is Christ, no one else. So, as a result of that, that's where the fear should lie. There's, ultimately, that has to do with where your life goes after this, and I know that's a lot of questions people have about their destiny and ultimately what the outcome will be. So that's where fear obviously is because there's nothing else. But we know, as believers, we no longer have to fear for that anymore, because we trust and believe that what the work was done on the cross was done for all of those who have acknowledged Christ and therefore we are free of that sort of burden about what's to happen next and we don't have to worry about that.

Speaker 1: 11:41

And so I have a question for you with what you say thus far, how does this encourage other diamonds to strive near the end.

Speaker 2: 11:52

The way that this can encourage other diamonds to strive is that. Ultimately, I think the most important thing that has to come from this is that, when it comes to life, there's a phrase that says we live our lives on levels and we arrive at stages and it happens at seasons, and I think the most important things as believers is that we have to know that it's a process. There's nothing that happens right away. Right, it takes time, and I think God, the beautiful thing about him and the beautiful thing about believers in general, is that we all know that everybody's not on the same level. There's different experiences that we're all going through and, as a result of that, there's a phrase that is stated that you should never compare yourself, because comparison is distilled in the thief of joy. Right, and therefore, the things that we do go through, when we compare with other people and we wonder why we aren't where we are, then we don't feel like we're making any progress. We feel like we're stagnant, we feel like there are points in times where we worry about what progress looks like, and I think it's important to what Paul states when he mays mentions that examining yourselves is an important aspect of the Christian walk because you want to make sure that the things that are standard or that are universally understand within the body of Christ are things that you are reciprocating and you see on a regular basis. So the most important thing that I think we do need to do as believers is one there's a passage in Romans, chapter one, verse 12, which states let us be mutually encouraged by one another's faith. Right, so being mutually encouraged is just simply appreciating and acknowledging your brother and sister. We also get in the book of Philippians, chapter two, which speaks about not just praying for yourself but praying for others. So we are much more stronger as a body than we are separate, which is why we say there's a phrase that one can put one thousand out the flight, but two can put 10,000 out the flight. So we don't grow in isolation but we grow in community. So having a strong sense of family, having a strong sense of believers and people that we trust, that can hold us accountable because that's the most important aspect about your Christian walk is accountability. Right Descriptions hold us accountable, but having the people that are around us to hold us accountable, I think, is even much more stronger. So having that supporting cast along with having the scriptures, along with having good relationship, bible study. You know those sort of things are great community. I think that's how you can press and move things forward ultimately for the best outcome.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Amen. So let me ask you this how did you come to Christ?

Speaker 2: 14:47

Yes, the way I came to Christ is. It started with the fact that I grew up Christian. However, one of the biggest issues that I have was I was trying to experience God personally and I saw what God was doing with other people, but I didn't see how it translated to my personal work with Christ. And it wasn't until I went and opened up the book in the Bible and always motivated based on this passage in the book of Luke where Jesus told Peter that the devil seeks to have you, but I pray that your faith won't fail you. And it was in that passage where Jesus explained to Peter that he's going to go through some things and this is a power phrase here but after what he has gone through, take what you've learned and strengthen your brothers and sisters. So it was this whole thing of you know the devil seeks to sweep you like a sweep through in the bread, but he's saying, through these experiences, through these hardships, through these ups and downs, you're going to get lessons that come out of it. And I think the biggest and greatest thing that we ever learned when it comes to test and trials. Because you know, in the book of James it says consider pure joy when you face trials and tribulations, to know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance penises work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If anyone lacks anything, let them ask God, who gives generously while finding food. And then we get in Romans, chapter 5, 3-5. It says rejoicing your sufferings, because sufferance produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character, character produces hope. Hope is not put into shame because the Holy Spirit is brought out onto us. It was those two scriptures, also with the understanding of what Jesus told the disciples when he said. He said in this life you will face tribulation, you will have hardships, but be a good cheer, for you know he has overcome the world. Therefore you can overcome the world. It was through these two passages alone, what Jesus explained to him, that I began to see that the scriptures themselves is what motivates and gives you encouragement and gives you understanding, and it was through that that I had a desire to do exactly what I told you earlier with Matthew 7 and 7 and NLT is that I began to seek God and I began to seek Him through His Word, not through any supernatural experience, even though I acknowledge that they are supernatural experiences that people have, but I do believe that those have to work in sync with one another. That we can't just rely on experiences but we also have to rely on the scriptures that benefit and also support the experiences that are aligned. That we also have to be prepared to give a reason for the hope that we have, but we have to do it generously and respectfully. Speech has to be seasoned, so it was. Provides Godly wisdom, godly discernment and Godly judgment. So it's due to studying, along with understanding, that the scriptures are there to give you a reason to trust God. Because when we look at faith, we know faith is a substance of things hopeful, to evidence of things not seen. But the practical aspect of faith that I've discovered and I've actually put into place is that it is a reason. Trust it's an enduring process and then there's a knowledge. It's a foreign knowledge that we have within us. So that enduring process is what built my understanding that the faith that I have in God it's not gonna be something based upon the things that I see, but it also has to be something that I have to go through and it's not gonna be easy as a person on any circumstances. So it was because of the experience that I had that kind of got me into understanding that this walk that I'm gonna have with Christ is gonna be in it for a long time and they're gonna be highs and lows, but as long as that I remain faithful and trusting God, things will play out the way they're supposed to and I would begin to learn who God is through the testers and trials. And that's the most important thing, that changed my life.

Speaker 1: 18:51

Amen. So let me ask you another question While studying philosophy. Have you ever questioned if God exists?

Speaker 2: 19:03

No, and I think when we do question God's existence, it comes from a place of not reading the scripture. I'm not gonna learn anything about God outside the scripture. I'm gonna learn what other people say about the scripture, but ultimately the scripture, all scripture, is Holy Spirit breathe, which means it's Holy Spirit inspired, which means, if I wanna know more about who God is in his story, we know historically right, cause I also mentioned in history that everybody has their own flood story. The different cultures and aspects provide their own flood story. Everybody has their own study of eschatology about how things began. Everybody has their own story and an arrangement of what happened at the tower battle. But the most important thing is that if I'm a follower of Christ, the information has to come from him and nowhere else. There are a lot of people that read the scripture and their eyes are not open. And their eyes are not open because they have to submit it to God and ultimately, for me. This is why I feel that God is the author of reasoning and morality. We get that in the book of Isaiah, where he said come, let us reason together. So if I wanna know who I am and why I was created, I'm not gonna find it in no other book other than the book that God inspired and hand-written with believers to provide something for my faith and my belief. The scriptures provide me reasons to trust God. I'm not gonna find that in the scriptures. So of course, if I'm not reading the scriptures then of course I'll be redirected to other schools of thought that are outside the scriptures, that God does not have influence over. In the book of Jose it said my people destroy for lack of wisdom. That lack of wisdom comes from not learning and understanding the different historical aspects of the scriptures that give you better perspective and understanding. So there was from that standpoint for me that I realized the only source of truth that is reliant upon who I believe has to come from the scriptures themselves. And there are other books that are written that enhance or provide perspective, and I think having perspective is interesting and good because it helps shape your worldview at the end of the day. But the most important thing is it can't be a source from other than God, and that's the source that I rely on and I'm gonna go to my death with it.

Speaker 1: 21:30

Amen. So I have one more question, and then we'll wrap up with the final thought question yes, have you ever lost faith?

Speaker 2: 21:43

No, now do I have concerns? Absolutely. And you know, I know we mentioned earlier. There's this thing that I learned in reading the Scriptures God proven versus God revealed. And when we're talking about God proven versus God revealed, god prove it. It's something that the world looks to try to make sense of. Did God really exist? Did he really down? For us, and the belief is hingent on the resurrection. God revealed is a passage in the book of Luke, chapter 24, that speaks about the revealing of himself to the disciples on the way to Damascus and also when they were within homes. And there's something about that, the revealing of God. You have to take the leave of faith to trust God and in that process, god reveals himself to you and that revealing thing that happens to you is what then empowers you to trust God. So losing faith will have to mean that all the things that you've read, all the things that you know right, jesus appearing to more than 500 people, you learned that when he was resurrected in the Gospels. It's to me, it's all the solid information and the impact that it has on the believer. Right, the Gospel message is not just a personal transformation, it's a public and community reform, which means that passage in Ezekiel 3626 that speaks about receiving a new heart, and giving you a responsive heart is what shapes and fashions you to pursue the things of God and ultimately, that's what we're all striving for. So I can't experience all these things and see a change in a person's life including myself and then lose faith. No, I think what it is is when you let that you give the devil a foothold to come through. That's when you start questioning the things that God has already done for you. But God has been a blessing to us on so many different levels, in so many different ways. It'd be hard for me to look at one hardship or one thing and not make sense of it. Or even reading scriptures, and there are some people that give you the perspective or give you the impression that things are written in contradictions, where all they really are paradoxes, which is extremely hard, extremely understandable information. But once researched and well, once researched and discovered you start to see that it makes more sense. You know God is a mystery. He's always going to be a mystery, every decision we ever make in life. We're not going to always have all the information there, but I believe God leaves enough in his walk, with him and in other people's testimonies, that there's no way you can leave faith. You might have some concerns, but I wouldn't classify them as worries, and I think ultimately that's the mystery of God and ultimately that is what faith has caused you to have. You have to, regardless of the circumstances, continue to trust God and believe that all things were together for those who love the Lord and the call to the corner, to His purpose and as in Rome is 828. And that I think it's worth going on a journey for and experiencing God each and every day, the highs and the lows.

Speaker 1: 25:03

Amen. So final question before we wrap up and afterwards, I'm going to get you to pray us out, if you will.

Speaker 2: 25:12

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Do you think there is a difference between religion and relationship?

Speaker 2: 25:19

Yes, I do. I think religion is. I think it's well-put in this way. It's a beautiful thing, right? Jesus told us, and that's what John 14.6, I'm the way, the truth in the life. No one can come to the Father except through me, and that's a powerful declaration. That means that the desires that other religious sisters believe is centered around good works. Now we do good works as a result of our faith. We learned this in the book of James and obviously the book of James is very controversial that making it into the 66 books of the canning books. But there was something there that was very essential and important in the book of James. One of the things that is said in the book of James it might be chapter one to chapter two is to be about. Is you know? He says good religion is to take care of widows and also to take care of those who are in need. Right, and there are religious aspects that are important and essential. Right, because there are things that make up the things that we practice from Judaism that's transferred over to Christianity. If you look back in the Babylonian age, every belief system came as a result to what transpired at the Tower of Babel, where you have Nimrod, cimmerius and Timbu who, if you look over the different belief systems, hadn't mimic the Holy Trinity in that concept. But then you had the Abrahamic belief system, which was centered around the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, and those are the two belief systems that started and those are the two belief systems that still exist today. Obviously, christianity has changed due to the second covenant and the Embracement of Christ, transferring over to grace from where it once was, from the law, and we understand the points of that, which is also the invitation to everybody to come in. And then the other belief system has been the same, where a woman at the helm, and we learn about that throughout the different books in the Bible, where we're being warned about the woman. Now, I say this all to say, the personal relationship aspect is very unique and different because it shows that God wants us to be friends, he wants us to have a relationship with Him. We're invited in that. In the book of 1 John, the stresses that it's an invitation, a fellowship that John invites us into, and I think that's essential because if it's relationship, I think we're much more sensitive as human beings to appear to the relationship, which is structured based upon what God demands of, and I think ultimately, it's because of that, I think we're much more responsive to it and I think it takes much more hold in terms of accountability and responsibility when we develop that relationship. We don't get it to heaven based upon what we know. We get it to heaven based upon who we know, and who we know is Jesus Christ. He is that only way, that only truth and that only life, and it's by modeling and mimicking Him that we can get close to holiness. We may not quite get there, just like the person who strives to be their master may not get there and be their master, but the striving can then lead us down a path where, ultimately, we can learn and grow under the leadership of God as of Christ. So, yes, I think there is a big distinction. Our salvation is not based upon the good things that we do. It's based upon the relationship that we have at Christ and the work that he's done on the cross for our salvation and ultimately, that is what changed, and it's the same thing that's told to us in the book of Ephesians that it's not based upon the works we do, but it's based upon grace and stuff that we don't deserve, but that was freely given to us, based upon God's love for us.

Speaker 1: 29:05

Amen. And one more thing before we close out in prayer tell our viewers how you they can find your podcast.

Speaker 2: 29:17

Absolutely so. The podcast is found on more streaming platforms and get us in it's up YouTube it's also. We also have a Facebook group. We have a TikTok. The TikTok and Instagram is simply the truth of TMIS. The truth of TMIS and the Facebook group is called I'm a believer and that's based on the motivation of Romans 112. Let us be magically encouraged by one another's faith. Again, we don't grow in isolation. We grow in community. We grow and hold one another accountable and we also grow and our desire to learn and learn more about who God is and how he can shape and fashion us and guide us into a life that is living, flourishing, with His guidance and direction. And, ultimately, if there's any questions, I'm open to always having conversations and dialogue. I believe that's how we grow ultimately. At the end of the day, it's speeded S-P-E-E-D-E-D-A-3-I-D-M-Acom. You email me at any time for prayer, for conversation. I'm on board for having it because I think that is how we can grow as a community.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Amen, all's. All that's left to do is pray yourself.

Speaker 2: 30:30

Yes, thank you so much for the opportunity and this has been great. Appreciate it, Heavenly Father. Lord, in Jesus' name, I want to thank you so much for this opportunity to be on this podcast and to have conversation with these dying believers. Lord, the most important thing that you said is, anytime two or three are gathered there, you are in the midst. Therefore, I pray and I ask that you watch over all the listeners. Be mindful of the fact that, as believers, we should let our life shine before others so that they can also glorify our Father in Heaven. So I implore and I encourage what's been going on here to this podcast. I pray that they continue to have a vision and a desire to do amazing things in your name, Lord, Because we know that you're out in the making, beginning the end, creating all things and anything that we ask according to your will. You will do so. We place our faith in our commitment and to you. Believe and trust that you are the only way and that the gospel that you preach is the gospel that we also adhere to and believe. Let it just not be a personal transformation, but let the things that we learn use it as an opportunity to share with others. So, Lord, I ask this also let us add to our faith goodness into goodness, knowledge and to knowledge, self-control and to self-control, perseverance into perseverance, godliness into godliness, mutual affection into mutual affection, love. Let us always remain and remember that we should encourage one another, we should be there for one another, we should care for one another and we should find any way possible to help one another. Again, we don't grow in isolation, we grow in community. So continue to give us and encourage us to do those such things. One more important thing also, Lord, that I wanna share and express to the listeners as well, is that I want us to always remember who you are, that you're not the alter confusion that you will never leave us to stray, but, more importantly, you care about us and you want what's best for us. So I want us to keep that in mind. So let's always put it on the fore-armor of God, wherever we go, and let us always remember that we represent others. Let us be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry, because human anger is not the righteousness that you desire for us Today. Therefore, the things we say, how we say it, let's use temperament, let's be careful, let's be cautious, Lord, we say these things in Jesus' name.

Speaker 1: 32:58

We pray amen, amen, amen. We enjoy having you on this podcast, jonathan, and we definitely have to do this again. And, fellow diamonds, you know what's next. Until next time, remember you are a diamond in the rough.